1) “I wrote that Karla would have considered this man’s case as a probable abduction.”

No, you said she “would have most definatley percieved this man’s experience as being a possible abduction” which although equivocating a bit, is a little more definite than what I suggested, which was that she would likely have concentrated on the details that others throw out. I never said that she wouldn’t have thought it wasn’t an abduction.

2) “Not true in all examples. There are many reported cases with multiple witnesses. For some reason, such cases inspire extremely harsh attack from UFO skeptics and believers alike. Why?”

Multiple witnesses is good. What do the witnesses agree on? Have they been separated and have they told the same stories? Are there recordings of these interviews so that we can tell if the researcher is leading them? Hypnosis and witness questioning by self-trained “experts” is notoriously mercurical, since the witness is looking for any sort of logic or meaning to make sense of their experience. I do not say that they didn’t have something weird and disturbing happen to them, perhaps even an encounter with non-human entities. One researcher (a clinical psychologist) who was a friend of mine and an abductee said that “Most abduction researchers have little respect for or understanding of the subconscious.”
2)”Yes, it is a logical assumption. Just like the ETH is a logical assumption.”

Yes it’s logical. It hasn’t gotten us anywhere with ultimate answers, but it’s logical- even though it’s based on assumptions with no provable objective evidence.

3) “Could not this same information lend credence to it’s genuinity?”

Yes, it could, in the same way that some people insist that the world is flat because they refuse to take a trip to the edge. Models should change or be modified if they are getting us nowhere, or nowhere fast.

4) “What I also like about Dr. Jacobs is that he doesn’t waste time pondering arcane or mystical explanations of the phenomena. Nor does he dwell on the emotional aspects/feelings of abductees.”

A mistake in my opinion. Humans are logical and emotional creatures. We seem to have a disagreement on what we accept as evidence. That’s cool.

5)”I must admit that time is revealing him to be more of a shaman than a psychologist/psycho-analysist.”

I submit that he was both, and I don’t reject his theories because of it. A look at Jacobs’ curriculum vitae reveals him to possess a doctorate in history, not psychology, and I wouldn’t reject his ideas because of that either.

Thanks for the comments. They made me think, and that’s always good.

“You say that Karla Turner would have said that this man’s experiences were abductions. I gather that you infer this from reading her books and one quote that seems to contradict the one I brought up.”

I wrote that Karla would have considered this man’s case as a probable abduction.

“The point I’m trying to make is that to most people, the “classic” alien abduction is an assupmtion.”

Yes, it is a logical assumption. Just like the ETH is a logical assumption.

“By the methods available to us, it isn’t proven as an external experience either, at least not as something that anyone could have or even observe second-hand.”

Not true in all examples. There are many reported cases with multiple witnesses. For some reason, such cases inspire extremely harsh attack from UFO skeptics and believers alike. Why?

“Strange encounters with non-human beings have been going on for thousands of years, and have been described in many ways. The abduction scenario has been with us as a model only since the 1960s.”

Could not this same information lend credence to it’s genuinity?

“I would also not compare Turner’s methods to Jacobs, who seems to me to accept everything that fits with his theories, and reject aspects that do not.”

Of course I won’t argue against your opinion, but I will state I disagree. I don’t believe Dr. Jacobs had any theories to begin with, something seemingly unheard of with regards to more younger researchers. Also realize this is a man who was completely against the reality of Alien Abduction. I’ve always wondered what swayed him along the line.

I have found from reading his books and/or theories, that the field of Ufology, more imortantly ‘alien abduction’, has a misunderstood genius with regard to this man’s intuitive understanding to always take into account human psychology with regard to the phenomena. To be able to understand that almost all abductees embellish their stories with various motivations of the aliens and or experiences that never occured. A perfect example of his ‘widsdom’ is when he is dealing with an abductee who claims they fought-off or did something to prevent an abduction. Without resorting to accusations of ‘liar!’, Dr. Jacobs calmly steers the person back to certain inconsistancies in their recollection, often multiple times! At some point, usualy, the abductee finaly realizes that something isn’t adding up and by questioning his/her memories further often finds that this belief is nothing more than wish-fullfilment, that an abduction did in fact occur, and often the abductee is only conciously recalling the very beginning of the experience and then the very end, when the aliens leave.

What I also like about Dr. Jacobs is that he doesn’t waste time pondering arcane or mystical explanations of the phenomena. Nor does he dwell on the emotional aspects/feelings of abductees. He fully understands that only the actions and or communications during an experience are of importance, esp. when the abductors are said to be able to alter our perceptions.

With regards to Jung’s quote, was this stated before or after his halucination of floating into heaven and boarding a craft? I dig Jung’s work a great deal, but alas, I must admit that time is revealing him to be more of a shaman than a psychologist/psycho-analysist.

-Jason

Sure. Why not?

You say that Karla Turner would have said that this man’s experiences were abductions. I gather that you infer this from reading her books and one quote that seems to contradict the one I brought up.

The reason I used this quote/ idea is that she told it to me directly, I published it in my magazine, and we discussed it in many conversations. So my use of her idea is not an inference, it was one of Turner’s basic assumptions, used on a case-by-case basis.

The point I’m trying to make is that to most people, the “classic” alien abduction is an assumption. By the methods available to us, it hasn’t been proven as an external experience either, at least not as something that just anyone could have or even observe second-hand. Strange encounters with non-human beings have been going on for thousands of years, and have been described in many ways. The current “classic” abduction scenario has been with us as a model only since the 1960s.

Turner did not of course believe everything related by supposed abductees, she took them on individually. If some data points matched, there was reason to believe that there was more to the story, and maybe more importantly, the details that didn’t “fit.”

I would also not compare Turner’s methods to Jacobs, who seems to me to accept everything that fits with his theories, and reject aspects that do not.

Your theory about the experience described is just a good as any other, and may be true. What I am saying is that researchers who study abductions in a self-created vacuum may be cutting themselves off from any real progress.

I like to apply Carl Jung’s quote on UFOs in the broadest sense: “Something is seen, but no one knows what it is.”

More and more evidence says, simply, they lie. They are deceivers. And sometimes they turn us into self-deceivers in the course of their deceptions. And maybe the great deal of these “Atomigeddon Dreams” that Nick speaks of are implanted too….put there to scare the sh– out of us and make us turn to “our benevolent space brothers” to …..”save” us?

It’s funny that you quoted a person who would have most definatley percieved this man’s experience as being a possible abduction.

Karla Turner, God-rest-her-soul, along with Dr. David Jacobs, are the only two researchers who I am aware who have publicly stated that you cannot just automaticly believe everything told by an abductee. {reference Turner’s outrage/frustration that abductees are claiming the abduction, and the horrible things that go on during them, are positive, even ‘new-agey’ in nature.)

Dr. Jacobs had made a long list of frequent ‘lies’ told by abductees concernig their experience. I remember reading somewhere where Jacobs says that one of the things that gives away the fact that the person is lying is because what they are saying doesn’t make sence. For example, often abductees will state that they can’t see the faces of the beings, i.e. ‘black-blur’. Jacobs realizes this is non-sense as abductees routinely describe the faces of their captors at other times/episodes. Usualy these types of lies are created, and fuly believed in, in order to protect the abductee from an incredible level of fear.

With regards to this case, it’s make no since that a child could ’see’ so-called-’night people’ go about a normal life, even MOWING GRASS. More than likely, this is either nothing more than a series of strange dreams or the person is an abductee and has chosen to lie to himself as a form of protection. No one likes to be a victim. Lies sometimes empower people.

-Jason

Its hard to figure out exactly what is going on with all this stuff. If Mother Sarah Graymalkin’s Cormons are the same as John Keel’s Ultraterrestrials, and if such are what we are contending with, then it would seem to me that keeping them OUT would be the foremost sane objective (they are deceivers and “benevolent space brothers” and “benevolent dolphin brothers” are just masks of subterfuge that they wear to snare alien-hugging liberals with..LOLOLOL!!!!). These would be the WORST form of illegals ever! And if the ongoing effort ever since the days of Sign, Grudge, and Blue Book has been to turn the collective mentality of the population away from believing in such things…so as to shore up defenses in our corner of the collective unconsciousness…then it would seem that changing that strategy now and trying to say to all minds listening that they are “okay”…they’re “just” aliens…would be a bit on the cuckoo side. Sounds like Raven’s “Silent Surrender” capitulation on another post thread.

This would be doing a strategic “180″ and that seems hard to credit.

Would still tend to think this is somehow “ANTI” on our part; something being done to kept the rascals out…however successful or unsuccessful that effort might be.

But, like Iraq. This may be the WRONG strategy. The world’s religions tell you that you rid yourself of these things by calling on the powers of the Divine to cast them away…to send them packing. Its like clearing a room with sage. You ORDER them away. I recall a story from one of O’Brien’s “Valley” books where a woman awoke one night suddenly to find her room filled with what sounds like “Greys”. It looked like the beginning of an abduction scenario. In this case it went differently because the woman asked them “Are you of the Light?”. This halted them. Then she told them “If you are of the Light, then welcome, ” (or some such)”but if you are of the darkness, begone.”

They then turned…and were begone.

I always found that impressive. It ties in, too, with teachings in Shamanism, Cabala, Huna, Christianity,Hermetics, and most all great spiritual thinking; that you are more than merely a biological entity; you are a spirit entity with great powers and abilities…most of which you DON’T REALIZE YOU POSSESS. And the “adversaries” don’t WANT you to realize such. They want to dazzle you with THEIR abilities and induce you to not comprehend (or apprehend)your own.
This is more poker playing. This is their bluff. They want you to capitulate…to “fold”…by making you think they have the winning hand…and they don’t.

I sometimes wonder if all this is part of what is being talked about in all this 2012 business. A new spirituality, some say. Does that mean we are going to wake up and kick ultraterrestrial butt (and CSICOP’s too)? Would likely have to be something like that to get the job done.

I doubt that HAARP and chem-trails can pull it off.

Now maybe I am off on a tangent here but wasn’t Dr. Leary’s expiraments in the 1960’s all about how psycho-active, hypnotic and psychotropic drugs affected levels of consciousness? And isn’t a common thread in occult practice and magical practices the use of such drugs to open gateways or reduce thresholds to multi-dimensional realities?

In fact that is the common theme from midieval alchemists to plains indians who used paote and marijuana to “activate” their vision quests.

So what my mind jumps to isn’t that the government is using this knowledge to shore up dimensional boundry’s but rather they are pushing drugs, propaganda and seeding the skies with chemicals for the purpose of empowering one dimensional reality over another.

With so many people on these drugs, the threshold has got to be significantly lower not just for individuals but ambiently over huge regions. This might explain partly the “window” phenominae. With that in mind could it be that the amount of movies, books and documentaries that hype up the ETH is getting the populace ready to accept as “extraterrestrial” a future invasion of the “multidimensional?”

Well, I have speculated myself out for the evening.

Jess

Christopher O’Brien has a new Mysterious Valley book coming out, too.
Can hardly wait to get my hot heretical hands on it!!!! That San Luis Valley is one WEIRD place. I need to think about moving there one day! It absolutely strikes me as a “window” or “portal” area and covers a HELL of a lot more ground than the Skinwalker Ranch. That’d likely be a good spot for “Three or Four Weirdos seeking UFOs…or MIBs, or black silent helicopters, or…”.
yep. My kinda place. Just thinking about it makes me start going all heretical inside!!! Yeah!!!!!

“Spot on” as Nick would say. If you listen to an interview I did with cattle mutilation researcher Chris O’Brien, he talks about the possibility that there is some sort of covert operation to seal up a portal that would let evil things into our existence. Strange, I know, but if you know anything about ritual magic, or even wish fulfillment, not too far off the conceptual mark.

We’re speaking heresy here! HERESY I tell you!