Comments on: UFO Zombies http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/ UFO News, Views, and More Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:00:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: BoyintheMachine http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-979 BoyintheMachine Thu, 01 Feb 2007 02:02:40 +0000 http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-979 To Bill: Yes, We are indeed in agreement that the zombies of folklore did not consume human flesh. I'm also glad to learn that we share many interests. Further correspondance is welcomed. To Bill:

Yes, We are indeed in agreement that the zombies of folklore did not consume human flesh.

I’m also glad to learn that we share many interests. Further correspondance is welcomed.

]]> By: Bill Hancock http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-942 Bill Hancock Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:12:18 +0000 http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-942 All true and taken as such. Your scholarship on this material is excellent. I do indeed know that a lot of questioning has gone on about Davis's compounds, and that there has been questioning, as well, of some of Hurston's acounts, but all I have really been addressing here is a conformation to the general folklore...what it basically is (in general, rather than specific) terms...and what it is not: i.e. cannibalistic. As you say, the capturing of the soul in a bottle is the alledged methodology...whereas what I said, more generally, was that thae great fear of zombies in Haiti was not in being eaten by one, but being turned into one. We're getting at the same thing, just coming at it from different directions. Both of us realize, though, that what WE think of as a zombie is, increasingly (due to movies, video games, etc.) NOT what the public at large is coming to perceive as a zombie. As for the root doctor material, I may come to pick your brain later as a source for info to be used in a screenplay on "the walking dead" set in the SC Lowcountry. G'day and hats off to the esteemed Harry Middleton Hyatt! All true and taken as such. Your scholarship on this material is excellent. I do indeed know that a lot of questioning has gone on about Davis’s compounds, and that there has been questioning, as well, of some of Hurston’s acounts, but all I have really been addressing here is a conformation to the general folklore…what it basically is (in general, rather than specific) terms…and what it is not: i.e. cannibalistic. As you say, the capturing of the soul in a bottle is the alledged methodology…whereas what I said, more generally, was that thae great fear of zombies in Haiti was not in being eaten by one, but being turned into one. We’re getting at the same thing, just coming at it from different directions.
Both of us realize, though, that what WE think of as a zombie is, increasingly (due to movies, video games, etc.) NOT what the public at large is coming to perceive as a zombie.
As for the root doctor material, I may come to pick your brain later as a source for info to be used in a screenplay on “the walking dead” set in the SC Lowcountry.
G’day and hats off to the esteemed Harry Middleton Hyatt!

]]> By: BoyintheMachine http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-938 BoyintheMachine Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:51:20 +0000 http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-938 To Bill: Unfortunately ALL zombies are mere 'theoretical' beings. I'm assuming that you are not familiar with the criticism levelled against Wade Davis, not to mention Zora Neale Hurston? Wade Davis obtained multiple samples of the supposed 'zombie-drug', yet rejected each and every one after analysis proved there to be no neurological toxin present. He then shopped around for a Bokor and specificaly stated he wanted a concoction containing such toxins. Voila! -a Bokor emerged who was more than happy to supply him with such, and take his money. With regards to Zora Neale Hurston, and I must tred likely here because many an academic is in flat out denial, there is considerable evidence that most of her work is either plaigerized or flat out made-up, especialy her work on folklore -Mules and Men, Tell my Horse, etc. Harry Middleton Hyatt recorded several interviews with rootworkers in the south who were quite hostile towards Hurston, claiming she flat out lied about interviewing them or otherwise misrepresented herself. In Mules and Men, much of the 'Hoodoo' folklore comes word for word from a book entitled, "Black & White Magic of Marie Laveau" by .Bivens, which offhand I believe was first published some 5-10 years prior to Mules and Men. The moral to the story is this; Tales of Zombies as resurected slaves are merely the Hatian form of 'Boogeyman.' Such tales told to frighten people into conforming to the norms of society. There has not been one documented case of a true 'zombie' as claimed by Wade Davis and the like, though many a person has claimed to be a victim of just such. The true form of 'zombification' actually performed/practiced in Haiti involves the theft of the soul, as I described above. This is done as a form of punishment/retribution for any number of wrongdoings. The individual who has their soul stolen is, in fact, refered to as a walking corpse. They are dead to society, ostrocized, which is often a fate far more worse than death itself. To Bill:

Unfortunately ALL zombies are mere
‘theoretical’ beings. I’m assuming that you are not familiar with the criticism levelled against Wade Davis, not to mention Zora Neale Hurston?

Wade Davis obtained multiple samples of the supposed ‘zombie-drug’, yet rejected each and every one after analysis proved there to be no neurological toxin present. He then shopped around for a Bokor and specificaly stated he wanted a concoction containing such toxins. Voila! -a Bokor emerged who was more than happy to supply him with such, and take his money.

With regards to Zora Neale Hurston, and I must tred likely here because many an academic is in flat out denial, there is considerable evidence that most of her work is either plaigerized or flat out made-up, especialy her work on folklore -Mules and Men, Tell my Horse, etc. Harry Middleton Hyatt recorded several interviews with rootworkers in the south who were quite hostile towards Hurston, claiming she flat out lied about interviewing them or otherwise misrepresented herself. In Mules and Men, much of the ‘Hoodoo’ folklore comes word for word from a book entitled, “Black & White Magic of Marie Laveau” by .Bivens, which offhand I believe was first published some 5-10 years prior to Mules and Men.

The moral to the story is this; Tales of Zombies as resurected slaves are merely the Hatian form of ‘Boogeyman.’ Such tales told to frighten people into conforming to the norms of society. There has not been one documented case of a true ‘zombie’ as claimed by Wade Davis and the like, though many a person has claimed to be a victim of just such.

The true form of ‘zombification’ actually performed/practiced in Haiti involves the theft of the soul, as I described above. This is done as a form of punishment/retribution for any number of wrongdoings. The individual who has their soul stolen is, in fact, refered to as a walking corpse. They are dead to society, ostrocized, which is often a fate far more worse than death itself.

]]> By: Bill Hancock http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-924 Bill Hancock Mon, 29 Jan 2007 01:17:59 +0000 http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-924 While this concept of the "philosophical zombie" is intriguing...and frightening...it remains essentially a hypothetical construct...a "what if?" kind of situation. From historical reports the zombies of William Seabrook, Zora Neale Thurston, and Alfred Metreaux seem to be closest to what the folklore of Haiti has always described . Seabrook , in fact, wrote in "The Magic Island" (the basis for "White Zombie" with Lugosi) that he suspeacted a drug cocktail was behind true zombification..as might be the case with the famous Clairvius Narcisse...and this was indeed what biologist Wade Davis put forward years later (tetrodotoxin and datura) in his research findings (and factoring brain damage from oxygen deprivation between burial and "resurrection" in many cases). The cornerstone of the folklore, however, is the dullard, somnambulant, spooky/creepy "best of burden" drone worker who might be a threat to someone if ordered by a bokor to take a sugar cane machete to them, but that's about it. To the Haitian, the horror of the zombie was the threat of being made into one. Nothing more. Being "eaten" by them was/is a non-thought. What we have now, though, in a large part of the west, is a complete overhaul of zombie-lore, where the shambling field worker has become fictively merged with the traditional ghoul and has a liberal touch of Alfred Packer and Sawney Beane thrown into the mix. And you stop the average person on the street nowadays...anyone from nine on up...and ask them to tell you what a zombie is...and I'll guarantee you a sold 95% of them (or more) will spiel you out the George Romero media-driven cannibal version and will disbelieve you if you try to correct their error. Yep...a folkloric transmutation in full progress. While this concept of the “philosophical zombie” is intriguing…and frightening…it remains essentially a hypothetical construct…a “what if?” kind of situation.
From historical reports the zombies of William Seabrook, Zora Neale Thurston, and Alfred Metreaux seem to be closest to what the folklore of Haiti has always described . Seabrook , in fact, wrote in “The Magic Island” (the basis for “White Zombie” with Lugosi) that he suspeacted a drug cocktail was behind true zombification..as might be the case with the famous Clairvius Narcisse…and this was indeed what biologist Wade Davis put forward years later (tetrodotoxin and datura) in his research findings (and factoring brain damage from oxygen deprivation between burial and “resurrection” in many cases).
The cornerstone of the folklore, however, is the dullard, somnambulant, spooky/creepy “best of burden” drone worker who might be a threat to someone if ordered by a bokor to take a sugar cane machete to them, but that’s about it.
To the Haitian, the horror of the zombie was the threat of being made into one. Nothing more. Being “eaten” by them was/is a non-thought.
What we have now, though, in a large part of the west, is a complete overhaul of zombie-lore, where the shambling field worker has become
fictively merged with the traditional ghoul and has a liberal touch of Alfred Packer and Sawney Beane thrown into the mix. And you stop the average person on the street nowadays…anyone from nine on up…and ask them to tell you what a zombie is…and I’ll guarantee you a sold 95% of them (or more) will spiel you out the George Romero media-driven cannibal version and will disbelieve you if you try to correct their error.
Yep…a folkloric transmutation in full progress.

]]> By: Nick Redfern http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-919 Nick Redfern Sun, 28 Jan 2007 17:39:19 +0000 http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-919 Bill/Boy: That's very true: the classic zombie of today's horror film world is a relatively new addition to zombie lore and indeed doesn't go back further than the 60s. The zombies in the 1960s Hammer Films production Plague of the Zombies are somewhat lethal but they fit the image too of shuffling slave workers rather than rampaging killing machines as per Romero. It's interesting that most people's perceptions of the zombie are that of the Romero/flesh-eating monster scenario. When the truth is actually in some ways creepier. Bill/Boy:

That’s very true: the classic zombie of today’s horror film world is a relatively new addition to zombie lore and indeed doesn’t go back further than the 60s. The zombies in the 1960s Hammer Films production Plague of the Zombies are somewhat lethal but they fit the image too of shuffling slave workers rather than rampaging killing machines as per Romero.

It’s interesting that most people’s perceptions of the zombie are that of the Romero/flesh-eating monster scenario. When the truth is actually in some ways creepier.

]]> By: BoyintheMachine http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-914 BoyintheMachine Sun, 28 Jan 2007 16:31:24 +0000 http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-914 To Bill Hancock: 'Real' Zombies, as you put it, do indeed have a connection to the dead, for a small number of supposed victims in Haiti are considered dead, buried, and then 'resurrected' by the power of the Bokor into a life of slavery. I wrote 'a small number', since the most popular form of zombification in Haiti involves merely the stealing/entrapment of a person's soul, which is usually kept in a bottle. A victim of such 'soul-theft', will gradually loose their physical senses, especially taste and touch. Simply joys such as eating and various human physical contact, including sex, lose any appeal toward this form of zombie. Confounding this curse is the fact that the victims still remember how a food should taste and how good sex should feel, which I might add would serve to only worsen any developing depression. Eventually the deceased will become completely numb, both physically and mentally, and eventually waste away and actually die. Luckily for the victim, most Bokor's can be bribed into breaking the bottle containing the soul of the victim, and thus welcoming the cursed one back to the realm of the 'living.' Technically, the name for the walking dead is, '<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_revenant">revenant</a>' (revived one) This is the term that describes the zombies of Hollywood fame. Why does society use the term 'zombie' instead of 'revenant?' -I don't know. Why does society call a boy witch a 'warlock?' It's probably due to the fact that certain words have an implied 'coolness.' To All: This is the form of 'Zombie' that I personally fear: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie">PHILOSOPHICAL ZOMBIES</a> (Theoretical Humans Possessing No Form Of Consciousness, Yet Behaving As If They Do, And Being Completely Indistinguishable From 'Normal' People) (This link is a <a href="http://loris.net/zombie/zexperts.html">piece on philosophical zombies</a> made to look as if it was referring to the zombies of Romero fame, love it!) I did a blog last year about how it is conceivable that the state of being 'non-conscious', as in a Philosophical Zombie, could technically be transmittable if it is indeed caused by a virus or what-not. Say a Philosophical Zombie bit you on the arm. In a few days or so you begin to experience the worst headache of your life, as well as the perception of yourself 'shrinking.' The next thing your know your body is not obeying your commands and you are powerless to stop it. The good thing is that your emotional and psychological pain caused by this experience will soon end, as your very 'you-ness' will soon be extinguished. The remaining imposter looks and behaves just like you did so no one will ever know that any change had taken place. Scary. (Also scary to think of it's implication with regard to Alien Abduction, where people claimed they watched helplessly as they 'co-operated' with the aliens.) To Bill Hancock:

‘Real’ Zombies, as you put it, do indeed have a connection to the dead, for a small number of supposed victims in Haiti are considered dead, buried, and then ‘resurrected’ by the power of the Bokor into a life of slavery. I wrote ‘a small number’, since the most popular form of zombification in Haiti involves merely the stealing/entrapment of a person’s soul, which is usually kept in a bottle. A victim of such ’soul-theft’, will gradually loose their physical senses, especially taste and touch. Simply joys such as eating and various human physical contact, including sex, lose any appeal toward this form of zombie. Confounding this curse is the fact that the victims still remember how a food should taste and how good sex should feel, which I might add would serve to only worsen any developing depression. Eventually the deceased will become completely numb, both physically and mentally, and eventually waste away and actually die. Luckily for the victim, most Bokor’s can be bribed into breaking the bottle containing the soul of the victim, and thus welcoming the cursed one back to the realm of the ‘living.’

Technically, the name for the walking dead is, ‘revenant‘ (revived one) This is the term that describes the zombies of Hollywood fame.

Why does society use the term ‘zombie’ instead of ‘revenant?’ -I don’t know. Why does society call a boy witch a ‘warlock?’ It’s probably due to the fact that certain words have an implied ‘coolness.’

To All:

This is the form of ‘Zombie’ that I personally fear:

PHILOSOPHICAL ZOMBIES

(Theoretical Humans Possessing No Form Of Consciousness, Yet Behaving As If They Do, And Being Completely Indistinguishable From ‘Normal’ People)

(This link is a piece on philosophical zombies made to look as if it was referring to the zombies of Romero fame, love it!)

I did a blog last year about how it is conceivable that the state of being ‘non-conscious’, as in a Philosophical Zombie, could technically be transmittable if it is indeed caused by a virus or what-not. Say a Philosophical Zombie bit you on the arm. In a few days or so you begin to experience the worst headache of your life, as well as the perception of yourself ’shrinking.’ The next thing your know your body is not obeying your commands and you are powerless to stop it. The good thing is that your emotional and psychological pain caused by this experience will soon end, as your very ‘you-ness’ will soon be extinguished. The remaining imposter looks and behaves just like you did so no one will ever know that any change had taken place. Scary. (Also scary to think of it’s implication with regard to Alien Abduction, where people claimed they watched helplessly as they ‘co-operated’ with the aliens.)

]]> By: Bill Hancock http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-900 Bill Hancock Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:54:43 +0000 http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-900 As a student of folklore, and one who is fascinated by "layering" in folk contexts, I am continually intrigued by this ongoing totally recasting of what a zombie actually is. Old movies like "White Zombie" with Bela Lugosi, or "I Walked With A Zombie" show a zombie as what a zombie is supposed to be: a "dead" person brought back to "life" and automaton existence through the drugs or the magicks of Bokors and used as beasts of burden...slave workers to the bokors...or as guardians...and leading a shuffling, shambling life of drudgery and servitude. There is nothing in the zombie traditions of the Caribbean about cannibalism. The zombies got feed gruel...with no salt...and that was it. The cannibalism "facet" that pervades every perception of "zombification" today has its roots solely in Romero's "Night of the Living Dead" (and all its sequels, re-makes, and rip-off successors). These flicks are fun as Hell and a kick to watch, but they really have nothing to do with "real" zombies. As a student of folklore, and one who is fascinated by “layering” in folk contexts, I am continually intrigued by this ongoing totally recasting of what a zombie actually is.
Old movies like “White Zombie” with Bela Lugosi, or “I Walked With A Zombie” show a zombie as what a zombie is supposed to be: a “dead” person brought back to “life” and automaton existence through the drugs or the magicks of Bokors and used as beasts of burden…slave workers to the bokors…or as guardians…and leading a shuffling, shambling life of drudgery and servitude.
There is nothing in the zombie traditions of the Caribbean about cannibalism. The zombies got feed gruel…with no salt…and that was it.
The cannibalism “facet” that pervades every perception of “zombification” today has its roots solely in Romero’s “Night of the Living Dead” (and all its sequels, re-makes, and
rip-off successors). These flicks are fun as Hell and a kick to watch, but they really have nothing to do with “real” zombies.

]]> By: Nick Redfern http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-886 Nick Redfern Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:20:29 +0000 http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-886 Annie Yeah, if there is ever a zombie attack, the mall is the only place to go. But what would be worse: being eaten alive by a zombie or hiding out in a mall for the rest of your life listening to elevator music? The latter would be a real nightmare. :) Annie

Yeah, if there is ever a zombie attack, the mall is the only place to go. But what would be worse: being eaten alive by a zombie or hiding out in a mall for the rest of your life listening to elevator music? The latter would be a real nightmare.
:)

]]> By: Nick Redfern http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-884 Nick Redfern Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:10:47 +0000 http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-884 SMiles - haha, your mom and step-dad could be right. Have you seen the looks on the faces of some of those people driving down the road with their cell-phone rammed against their ear? That blank, vacant stare which they have, caused by listening on the phone instead of concentrating on where they are driving is the veritable hallmark of the zombie! SMiles - haha, your mom and step-dad could be right. Have you seen the looks on the faces of some of those people driving down the road with their cell-phone rammed against their ear?

That blank, vacant stare which they have, caused by listening on the phone instead of concentrating on where they are driving is the veritable hallmark of the zombie!

]]> By: anomaly http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-882 anomaly Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:48:25 +0000 http://www.ufomystic.com/the-redfern-files/ufo-zombies/#comment-882 Nick and Boyinthemachine: Yeah, that's a great movie - called simply ZOMBIE in the USA. However, it is NOT a Romero flick. It's a Lucio Fulci film: http://movies.infinitecoolness.com/20/zombie05.jpg My Mom and step-Dad are huge zombie movie fans. They think real zombies are going to be created by a combination of too much cell-phone induced brain damage and food additives. ;-) SMiles Nick and Boyinthemachine:

Yeah, that’s a great movie - called simply ZOMBIE in the USA.

However, it is NOT a Romero flick. It’s a Lucio Fulci film:

http://movies.infinitecoolness.com/20/zombie05.jpg

My Mom and step-Dad are huge zombie movie fans. They think real zombies are going to be created by a combination of too much cell-phone induced brain damage and food additives. ;-)

SMiles

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