Jul 20 2009
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John Keel Interview From 1992
Kenn Thomas recently sent along a recording of an interview he conducted with the late John Keel in July of 1992. I played the recording on Radio Misterioso on Sunday night. Due to many requests for a downloadable version, I have obtained permission from Kenn to post the file for free and perpetual public access.
The interview features Keel at his cranky best, skewering UFO fans in particular and paranormal dilettantes in general. He also mentions a few things that I found surprising, such as his contention that Kenneth Arnold originally witnessed only bright lights from at least 50 miles away when Arnold officially opened the modern age of flying saucers with his sighting on June 24th, 1947. Keel says that publisher Ray Palmer had Arnold add details that were not originally reported, and that UFO fans have been extrapolating the facts ever since. I believe that there are interviews with Arnold that include more details than just “bright lights” (or reflections) before he wrote about the experience for the first issue of Fate magazine in 1948 and four years later in The Coming Of The Saucers, which were both published by Palmer.
Keel also argues for his fugo balloon theory of the Roswell crash, which should still piss off a lot of people, which is just how old John would have wanted it. Keel was in an adversarial position with the ufological rank-and-file from the beginning, which made him a bit impatient with those he thought were stuck in a hopelessly bankrupt belief system, but his theories are still valid with respect to things that have not been explained to everyone’s satisfaction. If you can find a copy of his landmark book Operation Trojan Horse, I would highly recommend that you read it.
Significantly, he also mentions that he first believed that the Mothman was an actual creature that he could catch, but later decided that it did not exist in the way that other animals do, i.e. its presence in our reality was temporary. I believe that he applied this reasoning to other cryptids such as Bigfoot and lake monsters, which I have used as a working hypothesis ever since I first read Keel’s work.
The interview has been posted at the Radio Misterioso site for those who would like to hear it. Thanks again to Kenn Thomas for providing this valuable piece of audio.
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July 20th, 2009 at 5:10 am
What bugged me most about the interview was Keel’s propensity to believe that the only real paranormal experiences were the ones he’d written about. Why, for instance, does his theory that Mothman had a “temporary existence” not apply also to the deros?
Also, I wasn’t quick enough on the draw to point out that the Fugo baloons went up a good two years before Roswell and were not likely to remain aloft that long. Although I will say that the Fugo theory was also put forth by infamous FBI agent/Oswald employer Guy Bannister in testimony before the Lousiana HUAC. Banister was present in the Pacific northwest during the first post-Arnold wave and even helped recover a small saucer.
Arnold’s view of what he saw actually came to resemble more Trevor James Constable’s idea of living transdimensional beings. More on that in my upcoming new edition of the Maury Island book.
Keel was thrown a little bit that Bonds even had an interest in reprinting Mothman. In the interview he talks about how small the interest in UFOs/paranormalism had become, when in fact this was at a time of great resurgence of interest (X Files, etc.) Also I think he thought he was talking to some mainstream journalist types, not fellow denizens of the fortean underground. Anyway, he was self-consciously touching controversy buttons. The interview may not have been Keel at his best but I’m glad I helped rescue it from archival obscurity. Thanks to you, Greg, for airing it.
July 20th, 2009 at 7:55 am
A lot of stereotyping on behalf of Keel. “All UFO buffs work for the Post Office”, “All UFO buffs are Highschool dropouts who don’t read the newspapers”, “Most UFO news printed by newspapers and magazines were hoaxes”, “All UFO reports where the witness describe metallic crafts are hoaxes or distorted stories”.
I mean, I would have loved if someone would have mentioned the Socorro case or Jacques Vallee during the interview, but I fear that would have turned things pretty ugly.
July 20th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
I would be surprised if Keel was particularly aware of the “best evidence” cases, in the way that researchers like the late Dick Hall, Brad Sparks or Jerry Clark were / are. Keel always struck me as a man more interested in making myths (and money) than doing actual, serious research. Still, I can’t deny the influence he had, even if I don’t consider it to have been a good one. For those looking for an alternative to the ETH, Keel was at best an amusing distraction - the real substance lay with researchers like Vallee.
July 20th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Kenn,
I think that Keel had a dim view of most of ufology because they had a similar view of him. He brought it on and reveled in it.
Your interview points up the seamy side of this dysfunctional relationship, and reveals Keel, warts and all, as a controversial figure with something important to say. That’s why he remained a vital and interesting figure until his death, and continues to be.
When is the new edition of your Maury Island book coming out? I’d really like to read about Arnold’s change from technological to a more biological view of UFOs. Never heard of that!
I thought that Bannister picked up something that had been cobbled together from readily available radio and other electronics parts, and not really a “saucer.” As I recall from your book, it sounded like some sort of hoax or possibly a breaching experiment or counterintel thing.
July 20th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
RPJ,
Those quotes bothered me as well, but see my response to Kenn as well as Paul below.
July 20th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Paul,
I think that Keel was well aware of those cases, but chose to ignore them as inimical to his ideas and theories. He didn’t care if the UFO subject gained any respectability, he was on his own trip.
I find it surprising that you say he wasn’t interested in any serious research. He worked for decades intensely researching his ideas by talking to witnesses, visiting locations, and compiling data. Because this didn’t add to the mainstream UFO database shouldn’t be cause to dismiss his work.
Your comment about “making myths” may be a key here. He may have been ufology’s trickster, showing where too much seriousness for too long in one direction was damaging to a full understanding of the phenomenon and its connections to other paranormal events and issues.
Humans are analytical and emotional creatures. UFOs and whatever causes them appear to tap into both sides of this dichotomy. It may be the ultimate Rorschach blot. This issue was (and is) routinely ignored by the “serious” researchers.
I recall that Vallee included a space for psychological and emotional effects on witnesses in his matrix of UFO experience categories, acknowledging this aspect of the UFO subject. For those interested in a respectable face of ufology who played the P.R. game and knows how to get a complex idea across in an intelligent way, there is no better representative than Vallee, in my opinion, since Hynek has long ago left us.
Keel’s ideas were revolutionary and relevant, and still are. I think that he will be respected in much the same way that some artists, writers. and other creative types have gained fame after their deaths when the world catches up with their thinking.
July 21st, 2009 at 7:14 am
Greg,
Fair enough. I know you’re a fan of Keel’s, and we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think the work of people like Clark and Hall will live on, because it’s based on evidence - the work of Keel will be forgotten by all but a few in a short period of time, I think.
Paul
July 21st, 2009 at 8:02 am
I am totally with Greg on this one. John Keel remains an extraordinary writer whose works will outlive us all. Keel deals with a whole class of extranormal experience, not just UFOs, and certainly more than the handful of “hard evidence” cases of which some ufologists make a fetish.
Maybe his disdain for ufology, shared at one time or another by most people in it, stemmed from an understandable contempt for that kind of small mindedness.
Keel’s observation about the human lack of sensory equipment was almost word for word once said to me also by Tim Leary.
The problem with that interview was my failure to challenge him on certain assertions. I doubt if he would have contradicted anything he said, but the conversation certainly would have gone down some more enlightening paths.
I’ll send a separate e-mail with my documentation of Arnold’s Constablerian view of UFOs. Everyone here will have to wait until next spring when the new Maury Island book, entitled JFK & UFO, will be out from Feral House.
August 29th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Thanks for the interview, although it seemed to me that frequently Keel was serious when the interviewers thought he wasn’t. I have a copy of Operation Trojan Horse, a reprint I think, but I wish it would be reprinted again because it’s great. It really covers the airship controversy of the late 1800s which is utterly fascinating! The book includes many word-for-word accounts from the old newspapers. You can get it through interlibrary loan.