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	<title>Comments on: Anti-Structure In Ufology</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/</link>
	<description>UFO News, Views, and More</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Greg Bishop</title>
		<link>http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/#comment-6539</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Bishop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 02:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ufomystic.com/?p=1380#comment-6539</guid>
		<description>ETP,

Glad to hear it. I'm more of a "cheerleader" for alternate theories than a UFO researcher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ETP,</p>
<p>Glad to hear it. I&#8217;m more of a &#8220;cheerleader&#8221; for alternate theories than a UFO researcher.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Bishop</title>
		<link>http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/#comment-6249</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Bishop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ufomystic.com/?p=1380#comment-6249</guid>
		<description>111uminate,

"an approach from the outside with a touch of that maverick finesse would be a breath of fresh air."

Bravo!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>111uminate,</p>
<p>&#8220;an approach from the outside with a touch of that maverick finesse would be a breath of fresh air.&#8221;</p>
<p>Bravo!</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Bishop</title>
		<link>http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/#comment-6248</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Bishop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ufomystic.com/?p=1380#comment-6248</guid>
		<description>Jonah,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. 

As I understand it, there are problems with Marjorie Fish's interpretation of the star map, discussions about which you can find online. This throws the whole "map" episode into question, not to mention the reliance on Betty Hill's memory of details.

I also have questions about contamination of the database by the pubhsing of Simon's book. Of course, many people who have had these experiences never heard of, much less read Interrupted Journey, but all of the researchers did. This may also bring up the problem of subconscious cueing during hypnotic recall.

If you want to go further, there may also be a problem of "contamination of a collective unconscious," involving nonlocal, mental communication about abductions, and a template that was laid down by Dr. Simon and the Hills which we all use, even though we're not aware of it.

Of course, this has been shot down by abduction researchers, but the things they are examining lie outside the pale of normal experience and classical scientific scrutiny as well. 

Perhaps we have been making up the rules as we go, either under the control of our expectations, or the control of whatever causes abductions, or both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonah,</p>
<p>Thank you for your thoughtful comments. </p>
<p>As I understand it, there are problems with Marjorie Fish&#8217;s interpretation of the star map, discussions about which you can find online. This throws the whole &#8220;map&#8221; episode into question, not to mention the reliance on Betty Hill&#8217;s memory of details.</p>
<p>I also have questions about contamination of the database by the pubhsing of Simon&#8217;s book. Of course, many people who have had these experiences never heard of, much less read Interrupted Journey, but all of the researchers did. This may also bring up the problem of subconscious cueing during hypnotic recall.</p>
<p>If you want to go further, there may also be a problem of &#8220;contamination of a collective unconscious,&#8221; involving nonlocal, mental communication about abductions, and a template that was laid down by Dr. Simon and the Hills which we all use, even though we&#8217;re not aware of it.</p>
<p>Of course, this has been shot down by abduction researchers, but the things they are examining lie outside the pale of normal experience and classical scientific scrutiny as well. </p>
<p>Perhaps we have been making up the rules as we go, either under the control of our expectations, or the control of whatever causes abductions, or both.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Bishop</title>
		<link>http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/#comment-6247</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Bishop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ufomystic.com/?p=1380#comment-6247</guid>
		<description>regan,

Thank you. I'm only 60 pages or so into the book, which I should have read years ago, but waited until someone bought it for me. Hansen actually called me once, but didn't leave a number (at least I don't remember that he did.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>regan,</p>
<p>Thank you. I&#8217;m only 60 pages or so into the book, which I should have read years ago, but waited until someone bought it for me. Hansen actually called me once, but didn&#8217;t leave a number (at least I don&#8217;t remember that he did.)</p>
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		<title>By: 111uminate</title>
		<link>http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/#comment-6244</link>
		<dc:creator>111uminate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ufomystic.com/?p=1380#comment-6244</guid>
		<description>As external as the phenomena may or may not seem, we have to come to grips with the fact that it has existed purely on a psychological level. Just as you mentioned Greg, photos, video, even so-called whistle blowers and witness testimony, these are all things left to incubate within the minds of the curious. The amount of anecdotal evidence and physical traces are but a puck mark compared to the psychological stage this tedious part of human history has played out upon for the last sixty years.

That said, I would like to see parapsychology involved in it more in the coming years in a much more active way. New questions need to be asked, with broad studies and documentation to paint a rational picture of what we're dealing with, similar to the early work of Vallee involving pattern recognition. Theorizing and gossip can only take us so far, but I agree with you, an approach from the outside with a touch of that maverick finesse would be a breath of fresh air.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As external as the phenomena may or may not seem, we have to come to grips with the fact that it has existed purely on a psychological level. Just as you mentioned Greg, photos, video, even so-called whistle blowers and witness testimony, these are all things left to incubate within the minds of the curious. The amount of anecdotal evidence and physical traces are but a puck mark compared to the psychological stage this tedious part of human history has played out upon for the last sixty years.</p>
<p>That said, I would like to see parapsychology involved in it more in the coming years in a much more active way. New questions need to be asked, with broad studies and documentation to paint a rational picture of what we&#8217;re dealing with, similar to the early work of Vallee involving pattern recognition. Theorizing and gossip can only take us so far, but I agree with you, an approach from the outside with a touch of that maverick finesse would be a breath of fresh air.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonah</title>
		<link>http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/#comment-6243</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 06:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ufomystic.com/?p=1380#comment-6243</guid>
		<description>Greg wrote:

"The phenomenon appears to have standardized itself over the last 20 years or so. Abductions are carried out by what look like humanoid beings, often of the type depicted on the cover of Communion, at least much of the time–if we are to believe researchers who study this type of thing. Does this mean that the rest of the aliens decided that we weren’t worth the time, or that they are on a cattle kick now?"

It is interesting to note that Betty Hill described her abductors as being of two different types in the book "The Interrupted Journey". Although this was dismissed by Simon and even Barney to some extent, the "Leader" and the "Doctor" were described by her as being taller and the skin color as being brownish. This extends the descriptions of this type to about 45 years or so. It also, if true, changes another common fallacy in that many refer to 'Greys' (which I believe were the other type she was attempting to describe) as Zeti Reticulans (relating to the two stars discovered to correlate to the map drawn by Betty). However, Betty asked the 'Leader' (the taller, brownish entity) where he was from, not the shorter of the two types. Ergo, the taller brownish entities would be the ones from Zeti R. and not the Greys. It is also telling that she was told that some of the points on the map were "trade routes" indicating a potential consortium of entities. Not trying to quibble here, but these are the facts. Ask Stanton sometime if you get the chance...

It also tends to substantiate the journal entry of Jane Lead I posted a few days back.

"For it was secretly whispered to my Spirit, that in some there might be a refined and spiritual Emulation, as in others a more Gross and Sensual. Both of which I had councel, and caution, how to walk with; so as no occasion of stumbling might be given justly to the gainsaying Spirits: Whose pryings were to see how we would walk, while in the Wilderness state.”

At the very least, they are consistent...IMO.

"How can we theorize about something that stands outside what we can describe or even think about?"

A question every Fortean should ask -and answer- first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;The phenomenon appears to have standardized itself over the last 20 years or so. Abductions are carried out by what look like humanoid beings, often of the type depicted on the cover of Communion, at least much of the time–if we are to believe researchers who study this type of thing. Does this mean that the rest of the aliens decided that we weren’t worth the time, or that they are on a cattle kick now?&#8221;</p>
<p>It is interesting to note that Betty Hill described her abductors as being of two different types in the book &#8220;The Interrupted Journey&#8221;. Although this was dismissed by Simon and even Barney to some extent, the &#8220;Leader&#8221; and the &#8220;Doctor&#8221; were described by her as being taller and the skin color as being brownish. This extends the descriptions of this type to about 45 years or so. It also, if true, changes another common fallacy in that many refer to &#8216;Greys&#8217; (which I believe were the other type she was attempting to describe) as Zeti Reticulans (relating to the two stars discovered to correlate to the map drawn by Betty). However, Betty asked the &#8216;Leader&#8217; (the taller, brownish entity) where he was from, not the shorter of the two types. Ergo, the taller brownish entities would be the ones from Zeti R. and not the Greys. It is also telling that she was told that some of the points on the map were &#8220;trade routes&#8221; indicating a potential consortium of entities. Not trying to quibble here, but these are the facts. Ask Stanton sometime if you get the chance&#8230;</p>
<p>It also tends to substantiate the journal entry of Jane Lead I posted a few days back.</p>
<p>&#8220;For it was secretly whispered to my Spirit, that in some there might be a refined and spiritual Emulation, as in others a more Gross and Sensual. Both of which I had councel, and caution, how to walk with; so as no occasion of stumbling might be given justly to the gainsaying Spirits: Whose pryings were to see how we would walk, while in the Wilderness state.”</p>
<p>At the very least, they are consistent&#8230;IMO.</p>
<p>&#8220;How can we theorize about something that stands outside what we can describe or even think about?&#8221;</p>
<p>A question every Fortean should ask -and answer- first.</p>
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		<title>By: misteranderson</title>
		<link>http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/#comment-6242</link>
		<dc:creator>misteranderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ufomystic.com/?p=1380#comment-6242</guid>
		<description>That was a great book. I wish we could hear more from Greg Hansen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was a great book. I wish we could hear more from Greg Hansen.</p>
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		<title>By: reganlee</title>
		<link>http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/#comment-6241</link>
		<dc:creator>reganlee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ufomystic.com/?p=1380#comment-6241</guid>
		<description>Greg,

I love this piece! I agree, well said. 

Yes, everyone should read Trickster and the Paranormal!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>I love this piece! I agree, well said. </p>
<p>Yes, everyone should read Trickster and the Paranormal!</p>
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		<title>By: mister ecks</title>
		<link>http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/#comment-6240</link>
		<dc:creator>mister ecks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ufomystic.com/?p=1380#comment-6240</guid>
		<description>Every Fortean should read &lt;i&gt;The Trickster and the Paranormal&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every Fortean should read <i>The Trickster and the Paranormal</i></p>
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		<title>By: The_Sage</title>
		<link>http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/07/12/anti-structure-in-ufology/#comment-6239</link>
		<dc:creator>The_Sage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ufomystic.com/?p=1380#comment-6239</guid>
		<description>"Probably in no other field [other then psychology] do we have to reckon with so many unknown quantities, and nowhere else do we become more accustomed to adopting methods that work even though for a long time we may not know why they work. Unexpected cures may arise from questionable therapies, and unexpected failures from allegedly reliable methods. In the exploration of the unconscious we come upon very strange things, from which a rationalist turns away with horror, claiming afterward that he did not see anything. The irrational fullness of life has taught me never to discard anything, even when it goes against all our theories (so short-lived at best) or otherwise admits of no immediate explanation" (C.G. Jung, Foreword to the Wilhelm/Baynes Translation of the I CHING, pg. xxxiv)

"Missouri-itis means having the incorrect idea that what you see is really right before your eyes. In fact what people see is never right before their eyes; it's always a mental picture or image formed in the back of their brain. This fact indicates that human brains work like cameras (Pribram 1971). But the brain is much more flexible than a real camera. When a real camera forms images, it can only use input from the outside world. The human brain doesn't have that limitation...Eccle's work (1958) clearly shows that healthy human brains do not automatically separate mental pictures or images that based on people's imaginations, memories, and emotional feelings from mental pictures or images based on obvious facts...the origin of the brain's mental pictures doesn't matter; the brain still uses those mental pictures, whatever their origin, to control people's cognitive, emotional, and physical reactions." (RATIONAL BEHAVIOR THERAPY, Maxie C Maultsby, pg 16-17)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Probably in no other field [other then psychology] do we have to reckon with so many unknown quantities, and nowhere else do we become more accustomed to adopting methods that work even though for a long time we may not know why they work. Unexpected cures may arise from questionable therapies, and unexpected failures from allegedly reliable methods. In the exploration of the unconscious we come upon very strange things, from which a rationalist turns away with horror, claiming afterward that he did not see anything. The irrational fullness of life has taught me never to discard anything, even when it goes against all our theories (so short-lived at best) or otherwise admits of no immediate explanation&#8221; (C.G. Jung, Foreword to the Wilhelm/Baynes Translation of the I CHING, pg. xxxiv)</p>
<p>&#8220;Missouri-itis means having the incorrect idea that what you see is really right before your eyes. In fact what people see is never right before their eyes; it&#8217;s always a mental picture or image formed in the back of their brain. This fact indicates that human brains work like cameras (Pribram 1971). But the brain is much more flexible than a real camera. When a real camera forms images, it can only use input from the outside world. The human brain doesn&#8217;t have that limitation&#8230;Eccle&#8217;s work (1958) clearly shows that healthy human brains do not automatically separate mental pictures or images that based on people&#8217;s imaginations, memories, and emotional feelings from mental pictures or images based on obvious facts&#8230;the origin of the brain&#8217;s mental pictures doesn&#8217;t matter; the brain still uses those mental pictures, whatever their origin, to control people&#8217;s cognitive, emotional, and physical reactions.&#8221; (RATIONAL BEHAVIOR THERAPY, Maxie C Maultsby, pg 16-17)</p>
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